Curse

RhanoctJocosa · Jul 14, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

gw pvp was successful, if there was no pve then there could've been a lot more time and effort spent on pvp = winner winner.

YESH.

Bryant Again · Jul 14, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I agree. Then GW could have been as successful as Fury!

I heard no success is success these days.

(And I'm so glad your avatar hasn't changed : D )

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

gw pvp was successful, if there was no pve then there could've been a lot more time and effort spent on pvp = winner winner.

YESH.

GW would still need a way to rake in some cash.

JR · Jul 14, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I agree. Then GW could have been as successful as Fury!

Fury's lack of success had very, very little to do with being PvP only.

Avarre · Jul 14, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Fury's lack of success had very, very little to do with being PvP only.

Ironically, the least popular/most damaging updates were the ones that went away from the grindless pure-pvp model.

Correct me if I am wrong on that though, I didn't get to play all that much.

Anon-e-mouse · Jul 14, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

my personal opinion is that there should be no pve

Boy am I so glad GW wasn't designed around your personal opinion.

arcanemacabre · Jul 14, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Fury's lack of success had very, very little to do with being PvP only.

Perhaps you can point me in the direction of a PvP-only Online RPG that has been successful, then? You know, so I can reference it.

zwei2stein · Jul 14, 2009, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Fury's lack of success had very, very little to do with being PvP only.

Small, simple mission based PvE would have been awesome way to get players familiarized with (quite weird) skill and resource system.

And from my PoW, PvE with Fury skillset would be awesome. For same reason PvE with GW skillset was, rich interesting combinations.

Some Fury game modes had AI opponents and matches were about who can farm bots more effectively. They could have as well have made some lame story + missions and reward them with some unlocks.

Actually, is there some fury server active? I had fun reenacting cripshot ranger back when fury just became free (people just could not understand how they could have died to snare and degen

). T'was definitelly fun!

Ebony Shadowheart · Jul 14, 2009, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

I guess you enjoy playing with crappy PvE'ers that get the group wiped every monster pull.. right?

I didn't say that I want or enjoy losing, in pvp or pve, only that I don't mind. No, I don't like playing PvE if we wipe at every group, however groups do occasionally screw up. You laugh it off and continue on. Its about having fun. Which is something PvPers seem to have forgotten.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I don't really see why Playing To Win is so hard for some people to understand. They constantly recycle phrases like "elitist asshole" as if they actually meant anything. People don't PvP to lose, they don't PvP to be nice people, and they don't PvP to coddle the sensitive feelings of others.

"How you play the game" is not a rephrasing of "winning doesn't matter". The entire point of paying attention to how you play is to discover deficiencies that can be improved upon. The concept is most applicable when playing a noticeably stronger opponent - while the chances of winning are slim-to-none, it's an excellent opportunity to learn your weaknesses and observe how better players beat you. Yet, being destroyed by top players does different things to different people. For some, playing against top players is a priceless learning opportunity; in contrast, others get frustrated and discouraged, and generally shy away from playing stronger opponents. This difference in attitude is the very heart of "how you play the game".

So yes, if you play poorly, you will be called out on it. What's important is your response - you can either get offended and quit, or you can work harder to improve.

In short, if "having fun" is all you want to do, then competitive gaming - and really, anything competitive, simply isn't for you.

"Playing to win" isn't the issue; its the "win at all cost, no matter what, and if someone f*cks you up rip them a new one" attitude thats the issue. Games are supposed to be FUN! No, people don't pvp to lose, but they don't seem to do it for fun either. You either win, or you suck and that's not the outlook anyone should have. If you lose, you figure out where you went wrong, fix it, and try again. That requires some logical thinking and some empathy for your fellow players because at one point you were just as bad. No one started pvp as an 'uber elite' player.

I never stated that winning doesn't matter, and yes in competative play winning is the goal; however other parts of playing are just as important - teamwork, understanding, fun, etc. If something goes wrong you work through it, you don't rage, bitch someone out, etc. Constrcutive critisim gets you much further than simply losing your temper and ripping someone a new one; at which point they aren't going to listen to a word you say anyway and therefore not improve.

I expect something to be said if I do something wrong. How else am I supposed to learn? However I sure as hell am gonna get offended if someone starts going off on me and doesn't even explain WHY. So it's partly about response, yes; however its also about the form the critisism comes in as well, which was part of my original point. Something you completely missed, obviously.

You can be competative and still have fun. So you're last comment is complete and utter b*llsh*t. I played sports in high school, I was also into music. I understand competition quite well. I also understand that you can enjoy yourself while being competative and that although winning is the goal, the world isn't going to end if you lose. Again, if you lose, you suck it up, learn, and move on. PvPers seem to lack the ability to have fun, putting winning above all else, including remembering that no one is perfect, shit happens, and that at the end of day all that matters is that you enjoyed yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

"Playing to win" is not the problem, it's the "playing to win and if you make a mistake we are going to piss all over you, insult you and generally put you down" that is. The overly emotional attachment to winning; not the calm, rational analysis of what went wrong.

/agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

This exists in PvP *and* PvE. The difference with the latter is that you don't have to play with or even see other people, hence avoiding any nastiness.

In regards to how often one experiences the "spite", that will vary between players. Some see it once every day, some see it once every month. But this sort of attitude displayed by some players has been in existence since games went online.

This is true, it does exist in both. I won't argue that. However, even if you don't play with people you still occasionally have to deal with it. You'll find me arguing with people about attitudes in PvE about as often as you'll find me arguing with people about attitudes in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

my personal opinion is that there should be no pve

You're entitled to your opinion; however I don't share it. To each their own. Let them play as they please.

JR · Jul 14, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Perhaps you can point me in the direction of a PvP-only Online RPG that has been successful, then? You know, so I can reference it.

Only if you can show me one that has actually been well designed and executed.

Fury had no problem getting beta applications, the numbers per day when it opened up were pretty impressive. As a concept it was clearly very appealing to people. The problem was that none of those players lasted more than one or two days. Eventually it was hemorrhaging players faster than it was gaining them, the matchmaking slowed down, and it began circling the drain.

The reason for that can largely be blamed on bad pacing, poor balance, far too many bugs, and useless peripheral systems that did nothing but bog down the core gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Ironically, the least popular/most damaging updates were the ones that went away from the grindless pure-pvp model.

Correct me if I am wrong on that though, I didn't get to play all that much.

100% correct. I believe the player count was highest in "pre-beta", and maybe only once peaked back over that in "actual beta".

The pre-beta gameplay was much purer, more Unreal Tournament with magic, than the WoW arena wannabe it became later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Actually, is there some fury server active? I had fun reenacting cripshot ranger back when fury just became free (people just could not understand how they could have died to snare and degen

). T'was definitelly fun!

Nope. Fury officially and completely shut down quite a few months ago now.

the_jos · Jul 14, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

You can be competative and still have fun. So you're last comment is complete and utter b*llsh*t. I played sports in high school, I was also into music. I understand competition quite well. I also understand that you can enjoy yourself while being competative and that although winning is the goal, the world isn't going to end if you lose. Again, if you lose, you suck it up, learn, and move on. PvPers seem to lack the ability to have fun, putting winning above all else, including remembering that no one is perfect, shit happens, and that at the end of day all that matters is that you enjoyed yourself.

I was in the same class as someone who got to a US university because he was very good at basketball and played for our countries minor team (is that the right name for people under 18?).
When you have never encoutered someone like him you think high school sports is fun and enjoyable. The moment you encounter him you know different. He plays for wins and wins only with basketball. If he can walk through you within the regulations he will.
But then, things were not always enjoyable for him either. He had to play with some idiots who could not even handle a ball the way it's supposed to be done. He was always moving free and people just forgot to pass the ball to him.

Fun depends a lot on your environment.
Hardly ever the win is important but an idiot loss is something to rant about.
Why? Because you expect better from players with certain experience.
When you say you are really good prove yourself.

However, this is for fixed teams who play together often.
In random teams you might also expect something from a player who shows certain experience (though the wolf/tiger/phoenix could be obtained by someone else or farmed with gimmick). And if (s)he doesn't meet expectations it's time for some harsh talk.

I do want to have fun but fun also means playing at a decent level.
And if people don't meet that I'm not really having fun. Either I quit for the moment (did that several times last weekend) or I rant at people I know can do better. Because I'm not enjoying when others do stupid things over and over again when I depend on them.

Shit happens? Sure. No one is perfect? Sure. All that matters is if you enjoyed yourself? Not sure. It's a team game and all should enjoy.
I can take some build that annoys everyone who I play with or against.
I'm perfectly enjoying myself playing that. But the rest won't. And the rest is also there to have fun, remember?

So in the end I think in PvP you should set yourself away and aim for wins.
And be disappointed when losing. If you cannot do this, please don't play anything competitive except with some people you know very well and who accept that you are playing for fun more than wins.

Mordakai · Jul 14, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Can people who work in competitive activities actually have "fun"?

Fun, by definition, is "an activity that provides enjoyment and amusement."

Once you start doing something competitive (and I mean, really competitive), you aren't there to have fun. You are there to compete and win. It becomes your job.

That's why I think we have the argument all wrong: It's not "PvE" vs "PvP".

It's "Casual" vs "Competitive".

Just to expand on this thought:

GW2 is going to have ongoing "PvP" battles where people can supposedly join in and drop out at any level, just to engage in some "friendly" PvP. The nature of that should discourage any truly competitive players from playing, as what would be the point?

It will be interesting (to say the least) to see how it all turns out... Polymock sounded great on paper, too.

JR · Jul 14, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Can people who work in competitive activities actually have "fun"?

Fun, by definition, is "an activity that provides enjoyment and amusement."

Once you start doing something competitive (and I mean, really competitive), you aren't there to have fun. You are there to compete and win. It becomes your job.

Winning is very fun.

Mordakai · Jul 14, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Winning is very fun.

True, and arguably the harder the challenge, the more satisfying the victory.

But it's temporary, because then the competitive person wants to do it again. And again.

Shursh · Jul 14, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

too hard to get into pvp guilds/teams at this point - unless you remove all PvP titles so that no one can tell if you are good or suck lol.

there are a lot of people (myself included) that just prefer the PvE side of things, no matter how easy it might be to find a good pvp group.

Ebony Shadowheart · Jul 14, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I was in the same class as someone who got to a US university because he was very good at basketball and played for our countries minor team (is that the right name for people under 18?).
When you have never encoutered someone like him you think high school sports is fun and enjoyable. The moment you encounter him you know different. He plays for wins and wins only with basketball. If he can walk through you within the regulations he will.
But then, things were not always enjoyable for him either. He had to play with some idiots who could not even handle a ball the way it's supposed to be done. He was always moving free and people just forgot to pass the ball to him.

Fun depends a lot on your environment.
Hardly ever the win is important but an idiot loss is something to rant about.
Why? Because you expect better from players with certain experience.
When you say you are really good prove yourself.

However, this is for fixed teams who play together often.
In random teams you might also expect something from a player who shows certain experience (though the wolf/tiger/phoenix could be obtained by someone else or farmed with gimmick). And if (s)he doesn't meet expectations it's time for some harsh talk.

I do want to have fun but fun also means playing at a decent level.
And if people don't meet that I'm not really having fun. Either I quit for the moment (did that several times last weekend) or I rant at people I know can do better. Because I'm not enjoying when others do stupid things over and over again when I depend on them.

Shit happens? Sure. No one is perfect? Sure. All that matters is if you enjoyed yourself? Not sure. It's a team game and all should enjoy.
I can take some build that annoys everyone who I play with or against.
I'm perfectly enjoying myself playing that. But the rest won't. And the rest is also there to have fun, remember?

So in the end I think in PvP you should set yourself away and aim for wins.
And be disappointed when losing. If you cannot do this, please don't play anything competitive except with some people you know very well and who accept that you are playing for fun more than wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Can people who win at competitive activities actually have "fun"?

Fun, by definition, is "an activity that provides enjoyment and amusement."

Once you start doing something competitive (and I mean, really competitive), you aren't there to have fun. You are there to compete and win. It becomes your job.

That's why I think we have the argument all wrong: It's not "PvE" vs "PvP".

It's "Casual" vs "Competitive".

You can be competitive and still enjoy yourself, aka have fun. In hard core competitive play it may be the competition that you enjoy, it may be the challenge that you get your thrill from. The whole reason you get into something seriously competitive to begin with is BECAUSE you enjoy it. If you lose that enjoyment, you aren't going to want to do it anymore because it becomes repetitive and boring.

Yes, the goal is to win, but if you're synchronized with your team, everything goes smoothly, and yet you still lose do you suddenly not enjoy it anymore? No. You figure out what went wrong, go again, and try to be better. The adrenaline is pumping and you're enjoying the rush, win or lose.

Now, if you're in a group that's doing well, evening winning, and your teammate is shooting their mouth off, showing off, or being a complete jerk is it still enjoyable? No, not really. Even though you may be doing flawlessly, having to listen to someone else bitch or be a dick sort of drags you down from your high.

If you don't enjoy the game simply because you lost or because things didn't go as planned, then you're far too serious about a simple game. Winning is not everything, even if you are a seriously competitive person. On top of that, what exactly does winning a virtual game give you? Beyond the momentary feeling of accomplishment? This isn't the NBA or the NFL, they don't pay you for winning, you don't get anything that will affect you in real life. My point is that you can be competitive and still have 'fun'.

Still Number One · Jul 14, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

too hard to get into pvp guilds/teams at this point - unless you remove all PvP titles so that no one can tell if you are good or suck lol.

there are a lot of people (myself included) that just prefer the PvE side of things, no matter how easy it might be to find a good pvp group.

Removing titles doesn't matter. No one but retarded guilds that are going to fall apart in a month anyway need titles when recruiting. Top guilds know top players and if they don't know you, you don't get in. That has nothing to do with titles. Newer guilds for learning players don't require titles because they are all learning to play.

Titles don't tell whether you are good or you suck. People buy fame, and people buy champ points. They mean absolutely nothing except that you have experience in the area. The only time a title ever comes in handy is in HA when joining PUG groups. It doesn't matter anywhere else (except maybe TA PUGs). So removing titles wouldn't help your cause. It'd just make people even more skeptical of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Winning is very fun.

Winning cures all. All the rage goes away when you win. All the arguments about people raging are so stupid. The idea of the game is to have fun, correct. You have to remember there are 8 people on your team. You screwing up and causing 7 people a match they could have won prevents them from having fun. It is annoying. You get called out on it. Honestly it is very rare someone actually cusses a person out or completely rages on them. In every group I have ever been a part of it is usually me just asking someone why they chose the decision they did and then explaining to them why they were wrong and what they need to do next time.

I ask them what they were thinking at the time so I hear why they did what they did. I like to know why they thought they made the right move and what they planned to achieve through making it. It isn't because I want you to realize you are stupid.

So "rage", as people seem to like to call criticism, is a necessary part of pvp because you are preventing 7 other people to have fun by making silly mistakes. Maybe some of you had a bad experience and played with some jerk who had no clue what he was talking about, but the majority of players, and every single person I have ever played with, just helps others realize their mistakes and tells them how to fix them. You do it in a harsh tone because you have to let them know what they did isn't a joke and it has to be fixed.

Winning is fun for everyone. Losing is annoying if you lost because of the mistakes of 1 or 2 people. Rather than crying about someone yelling at you, listen to them and fix your mistakes.

arcanemacabre · Jul 15, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Only if you can show me one that has actually been well designed and executed.

That also applies to GW, and is pretty much my point. Online RPGs will never supply 'quality' PvP. Unfortunately, that title will always go to the FPSs and the RTSs. RPGs by their very nature, to stay true[r] to the genre, don't lend themselves very well to balanced and strategic gameplay such that it could be legitimately competitive.

No, PvP in games like these will always be more like a sideshow and a 'fun alternative.'

Avarre · Jul 15, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Can people who work in competitive activities actually have "fun"?

Fun, by definition, is "an activity that provides enjoyment and amusement."

Once you start doing something competitive (and I mean, really competitive), you aren't there to have fun. You are there to compete and win. It becomes your job.

Sorry, I must have forgotten how much 'working in repetitive activities' was fun. Farm that UW, sir.

You've skipped over the fact that people don't try to become extremely competitive in something unless they enjoy doing that something in the first place. Why else would you devote time to it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But it's temporary, because then the competitive person wants to do it again. And again.

A person wants to do something they found fun again. Who would have thought? 'An activity that provides enjoyment and amusement' says nothing about duration. Name one fun activity that isn't temporary.

As for rage, it gets stuff done.

ApocalypseAzza · Jul 15, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerel

Inspired by a comment made by Avarre in a Riverside thread, I thought that I might post some ponderings on what is arguably Guild Wars greatest failing, and hopefully hear your thoughts on the matter, where ArenaNet went wrong, and how things could be better for GW2.

The original Guild Wars is often touted as having been sold to us as a PvP game, or so many forum posters comment. And true enough, the original release of Guild Wars held a number of promises that appealed to a variety of gamers, sure, the subscription free model was nice, but the game itself was said to reward player skill, over time and grind... appealing to casual gamers.

Guild Wars, before the addition of title grind and relentless farming really didn't have a lot of PvE appeal, simply put you had a limited amount of PvE game play available to you, and once the PvE storyline was played out, you moved onto PvP. PvE was often cited as little more than a training area, a tutorial of sorts that led to the PvP end game content.

Obviously a lot has changed since that initial release of Guild Wars Prophecies, more and more has been added to the game largely to keep people occupied in PvE, to the detriment of PvP.

People just aren't making the endgame transition to PvP, as was originally envisioned in those early Jeff Strain interviews.

What do you think kept players from making the transition into becoming regular PvP players? Why is the PvP population so abysmally small compared to the masses of people happily grinding their way through PvE.

More importantly, what can ArenaNet do with GW2 to make a smoother transition between PvE and PvP, or better yet, encourage a healthy PvX population?

edit: It shouldn't need stating, but just for the obtuse, please no attacks or flames aimed at any part of the GW player community, just constructive ideas or honest opinions on why the divide exists, how ArenaNet could better implement transition between PvE and PvP play etc...

PvP still is time consuming, players are expected to know a lot about the game and players still spend a lot of time in PvP. It's not like an FPS game where you can jump on and just play.

PvE can be less of a grind depending on your goals, how YOU play the game. Not everybody is hardcore players, people don't want to have to THINK, a lot of players out there have spent all day in work THINKING and come home and want to relax. Guild Wars is good because you can play it at your own level, PvP is a nightmare for a new player to try and get involved with so they just don't bother. I think the vast majority of the population are just your bog standard players and theres where the money comes from.

The appeal of the game is the fantasy side, people who buy it like the whole knights in shining armour, dragons, a massive virtual world with real people. There isn't much appeal in coming to a point where the fantasy side is taken away and you're expected to sit on vent listening to people bang on about builds and what not for a long time. NOT interesting to your average joe. NOT interesting to many people, and the populations show it.

Ensign · Jul 15, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Just in terms of raw effectiveness it only makes sense to carefully explain mistakes and generally soothe the blow of telling someone they sucked if you're trying to maintain a lasting relationship with that person. People rage because it gets results. It trashes morale in the long term, but if you just want someone to pay attention right now call them out.

Honestly I think it's a pretty good tactic, especially in PUGs. Competitive players suck it up, especially if you're an effective leader; the people who emo out after getting called out aren't the types of people with the stomach to be effective anyway.